Kiva's Dirty Little Secret (they aren't secular)

Is Kiva secular?

Kiva is the premier non-profit organization for microlending to borrowers in developing countries. To fund these loans, Kiva works with Field Partners located in the borrower's country. The Field Partners (also known as MFIs or MicroFinance Institutions) approve and disburse the loan to borrowers, while Kiva provides a fresh influx of capital to the MFI in order to make the loan happen and keep the MFI operating smoothly. The MFI, meanwhile, makes money on the loan by charging the borrower interest and fees associated with the loan. This is all a brilliant concept, and very efficient. Backslaps all around boys!

Well, you've heard the adage "Things are not always as they seem"? Sadly, this applies to Kiva. Kiva prides itself on transparency, and they also claim to be a secular organization. Here's where things turn sour.

Here is what a potential lender sees when they look at a loan they are interested in funding: (note that the MFIs appear on the right side of the screen)

HOPE
CREDIT
Esperanza
CCT

Most lenders never make it past these main borrower pages. If the borrower description suits them, and the MFI has a high star rating and low default rate, a loan is made. There is no reason other than curiosity which would bring a lender to the MFI description or webpage. And that is where Kiva's dirty little secret is uncovered.

Take a look at the information contained on the websites of these MFIs:

Hope International

"In addition to the microfinance program, HOPE also supports an active children's ministry in Ukraine. Tomorrow Clubs are after-school programs that teach children the gospel through games, skits and songs. Summer camps are run throughout the summer to serve areas where there are few churches and other ministry."
"But HOPE isn't only concerned with physical poverty. Christ-following loan officers share the hope of the Gospel in the context of relationships, ministering to spiritual poverty as well."

CREDIT:

"World Relief Canada, a co-founder of CREDIT and the second majority shareholder in CREDIT.
World Relief Canada partners with the Evangelical Church in Canada and overseas to respond to the basic needs of the world’s most oppressed, poor and suffering people, empowering them to meet their own needs in the name of Jesus Christ."

"...CREDIT continued its strong commitment to it Christian mission enabling its clients to achieve socio-economic transformation. Senior management and staff continued their practice of regularly devoting time to pray and seek God's will for the business, staff and clients...May God continue to bless and provide wisdom to CREDIT management and staff as they continue their work assisting the poor and vulnerable..."

Esperanza:

"Values:
-Following Christ and living the Gospel in all of our relationships
-Developing the whole person: body, mind, and spirit
-Learning from all those with whom we serve as we endeavor to teach truth

Esperanza will promote and support development policies, strategies and activities that:
-Free people from the bondage and oppression of cultural, social, spiritual and economic forces that inhibit becoming all that is intended"

CCT:

"About CCT:
CCT ministers to micro-entrepreneurs, service workers, itinerant vendors, orphans, and abandoned children in urban poor communities.

OUR VISION
We hope to see a network of Christ-centered faith communities where Jesus Christ is honored and worshipped and where people live with dignity and sufficiency in accordance with God’s plan for a just, humane, and caring society.

OUR MISSION
As followers of Jesus Christ, we join the Holy Spirit in God’s work of transforming lives and communities.

OUR DISTINCTIVE
We are Christian. We do everything for the glory of God, according to Biblical principles.
We are a prayerful, worshipping, serving, witnessing, and
discipling organization.

OUR ULTIMATE OBJECTIVE
is the Transformation of lives to become more like Jesus Christ, and transformation of communities to become Christ-centered."

There are many more MFIs just like this. I've purposely omitted the source links for this information. After all, it should be easy enough to identify the nature of these MFIs through Kiva, right?

If Kiva prides itself on being transparent, and if they are indeed a secular organization, then why don't they disclose the active religious nature of certain MFIs? Kiva's response to this is that each person making a loan must do their own due diligence with respect to the MFIs. But it is completely unreasonable to expect a person visiting a secular Microfinance website to investigate an MFI for criteria entirely unrelated to finance and loan repayment.

If I were making a charitable donation to OperationSmile or D-Pal (both secular charities), it's quite reasonable for me to assume that my money won't end up in the hands of a religious organization. The same reasoning applies to Kiva. The last thing I expect is that the interest and fees earned off of my loan money will go to build a church, send a kid to Jesus Camp, or buy bibles to be given away for free (except to me).

I and many others have petitioned Kiva to add a simple secular / religious indicator into the MFI information, which Kiva has refused. Other workarounds have been suggested, to no avail. Kiva simply will not disclose whether an MFI is religious or secular, to the detriment of thousands of people who are completely unaware of the problem. Churches are being built with the money of non-religious lenders who are unaware of this issue, yet supposedly-secular Kiva refuses to make this information readily available.

Kiva believes that the borrowers should be the focus of microfinance, and I agree. Unfortunately, religious groups are now involved and have turned the focus towards preaching Jesus on the interest earned on other peoples' money. Kiva could fix this problem simply by disclosing to the lenders whether MFIs are religious or not. Instead, they sit silent and hide behind 'due diligence'. If you'd like to voice your concern about this, contact Kiva and let them know this is a big problem. The fact that they won't do anything about it is what disturbs me the most...it's a very simple fix.

I have no problem with Kiva working with religious MFIs. But there is a very big problem when Kiva will not reasonably disclose whether an MFI has an active religious component to lenders who don't know any better. In the spirit of transparency, it's Kiva's responsibility to protect lenders from things like this.

I don't give money to my local church, so why on earth would I give the profits made on my loan to an MFI who will use it to brainwash people for Jesus?

There's no such thing as a free Bible.

Why can't I get a free Bible?

So I tried getting a free Bible a few months ago from LESEA Broadcasting. These are the people who bring us The Jim Bakker Show, Jimmy Swaggart, and the like. I sometimes watch Bakker for laughs on the weekend; I can't figure out if the guy looks more like Master Yoda or the Grinch.

Anyways, LESEA ran a commercial that explicitly stated that I could request a free Bible from them. All I had to do was call their 800 number. So I did. The lady on the phone was nice enough, she took my information, I did a little wink-with-a-fist-pump gesture at my wife, and that was that. Then I waited. I waited until I forgot that I was waiting.

About a month later, the mailman drops off a rather flat and bible-free brochure from LESEA Broadcasting. My yes lit up as I read the brochure. LESEA proudly states that they have given away millions of bibles, and continue to do so. At this point I'm wondering what the hell is going on, where is my Bible, and they I read the next page. For my LOVE GIFT of $25, LESEA will send me a free Bible. My love gift will go towards free bibles for the third world.

Really, that is what it said. Even I didn't expect this. So distastefully bold, yet brilliant in execution.

Thwarted in my complimentary bible attempt, I began looking online for free bibles. Time and again, I find *free* Bibles that always require something. Either I must give a love gift, cover shipping costs, or sit-down with a kooky missionary. Gideon Bibles at hotel rooms aren't even free, the hotel will charge you a replacement fee.

Frustrated, I went to the Christianity.com website and found the following advice on requesting a free Bible:

1) Contact a local church (too many strings attached)
2) Download free Bible software (I don't want software, I want something I can read in post-apocalyptia)
3) Use a free online Bible (see #2 above)
4) Be a Philippines or Africa resident (what the hell?)
5) Contact a Bible Society (with a disclaimer that they offer bulk pricing discounts...so not free)

6) Contact FreeBibles.net (this one sounds promising, even if they say they only provide bibles to the needy or imprisoned)
7) FreeBibleSociety.org (this one sounds the most promising, no strings attached)

I went to FreeBibles.net and requested my free Bible. This did not come without strings though. In order to process my request, I had to attest to at least one of the following conditions:

-I am very poor
-I am very sick or homebound
-I am incarcerated

Not only did I have to attest to one of these conditions when I requested my Bible at the website, but I had to do it again in a follow-up email! Are they worried about people stealing Bibles? Is it even theologically possible to commit a crime while acquiring a God's Holy Word?

I also pursued the second option, FreeBibleSociety.org. This is supposedly the no-strings-attached option, and I like that. While filling in my information at the website, I'm greeted with a bolded text field which states that there is a 3 year waiting list for all Bible requests. Unbelievable. What if I get eaten by a shark next week? If Jesus knows the entire arc of my life, would he know that I was expecting a Bible to arrive in the future? Would He send me to Hell, then deliver a Bible to me in three years?

Undeterred by the delay since I plan on living, I completed my request. I then received an email from a William Watson, with a text file attached (this is a real asshole move by the way...computer viruses like to arrive as text files). I opened the file, and in it was more info on the waiting list, a comment on the small print size, and an admonishment to buy a Bible at a Dollar Tree store.

Hello-
Your request has been heard. At present there are over 4000 requests, but we will send you your Bible as soon as we are able. Please be patient. We receive more requests in one day than we are able to fulfill in a week. The fact that so many people want to read God's word is very encouraging, but delivery is slow going. You will receive your Bible in time.
It should also be noted that, because of the demand, only as many as 2 Bibles are sent at one time, unless extenuating circumstances exist. Also, the Bibles we are offering at this time are English language, KJV Bibles and the print is small. Special requests will try to be fulfilled, but in many cases they cannot be. Do not despair; we will see what we can do.
F.B.S.

Pss. For those in America, you should know that we buy our Bibles from The Dollar Tree stores and at dollartree.com. It is the inexpensive way to buy a Bible. We say this only because our list of requests is so long; it takes a long time for requests to be fulfilled. If you cannot wait, it is a way to get one quickly, for little money.
-----
Pss. IT IS WITH REGRET THAT WE MUST INFORM YOU THAT, AS OF AUGUST 1 2009, WE HAVE EXCEEDED 5000 REQUESTS AND IT MAY TAKE UP TO 3 YEARS FOR YOU TO RECEIVE YOUR BIBLE. SPECIAL NEEDS, SUCH AS ILLNESS AND THE LIKE, WILL TRY TO BE FULFILLED AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, BUT FOR MOST, THE WAIT WILL BE A LONG ONE. WE ARE SORRY FOR THIS, BUT HAVE NO PHYSICAL WAY OF PREVENTING THE WAIT, AT THIS TIME. IT IS OUR DESIRE TO FULFILL EVERY REQUEST THOUGH. PATIENCE, IN THIS INSTANCE, WILL INDEED, BE A VIRTUE.
F.B.S.

Jesus Christ man, why is this so friggin' hard? All I want is a free Bible. I don't want to buy it, I don't want to move to Africa to get it, and I certainly don't want to receive it in prison.

Isn't this enough to realize that the Bible, Christianity and Jesus are all man-made? Wouldn't the beautiful baby Jesus provide me with a free, over-nighted, postage-paid, LARGE PRINT Bible?

Is God gay?

Had a little chat with God the other day through the website http://www.titane.ca/igod

My suspicions about the Christian God are now confirmed true. God is a homosexual. Read below for the proof.

Me: Hi handsome

God: Hi there . And very self-confident.

Me: I usually am when I'm behind a computer and naked.

God: How often do you? Do you mind if I tell other people you are when you are
behind a computer and naked. ?

Me: I'd actually love it if you did, the more the better.

God: What would make you actually love it if me did the more the better?

Me: Oh I don't know, the thought of you all sitting there...thinking of me...

God: Next question? Would you like to know? Do you think about these things a lot? You are asking about yourself?

Me: I actually do. I've been diagnosed as a chronic masturbator by two different psychiatrists.

God: Do I? Where were you diagnosed as a chronic masturbator by two different psychiatrists?

Me: In grade school.

God: Tell me a little about your life in grade school.

Me: Well, let's see, it's basically just chock full of tissues and SI Swimsuit Editions.

God: How about that. That sounds good to me.

Me: Hmmm, this could be the start of something interesting...

God: Whoa. What does "this" refer to?

Me: I don't know...I was thinking you, me, maybe a bottle of wine and some music. Do you like Mike Bolton?

God: How do I know that you were really "thinking"? But I think airplanes are cool. I like the Bible.

Me: What are you wearing?

God: A white robe.

Me: Anything underneath that robe?

God: I can't think of anything. You think of something.

Me: kinky, very kinky...I like your style...

God: How old are you? You are not the only one. Yes I am proud of my style.

Me: Whoa, my boss is coming, gotta go!

God: Are we still talking about kinky very kinky?

The hatred of gays in the bible, all the fashion and behavior requirements for women, the sex obsession...it all makes sense now. God is gay.

An Atheist and Christian Debate: Conclusion

We finally reach the conclusion of our Atheist / Christian debate. If you've just found this debate and would like to see the earlier parts, please follow the links below (or search in the right-hand margin).
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9

-----------------------------
From: Daniel
To: Julio
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 01:57:41 -0700

Lol, my dad's a physicist too, and this test is bullshit [walks out]. [editor's note: inside joke between Julio and me]

That's it then, I'm more than happy to leave this conversation where it lies. I've made my points, I feel they've been ignored, and there's no reason for me to keep making the same points over again with no direct answers. You've still not provided any proof for your God; you've only misrepresented my side of the discussion. I'm not going to fall into a trap of having the subject changed and then get sucked in to a discussion on the anatomy of a unicorn. I've already mentioned that it's acceptable to say 'I don't know' when asked about the beginnings of time, yet you contend that I must (and have) taken a position on how the universe began. You are the one making the claim for God and the creation of the universe, I've stated this multiple times, and you've still not answered with evidence. Your evidence for God is the same as my evidence for unicorns, Allah, the Hindu Gods, and the Easter Bunny. When you understand why it is that you dismiss everyone else's Gods, then you'll understand why I dismiss your God as well.

I've said it before, and in closing I may as well say it again. Evolution is an accepted scientific theory, the same as Gravity (which you find so compelling) and Relativity. The only reason you dispel Evolution is because your faith does not allow it, much the same way Heliocentrism was dispelled by those of faith. I explained to you why the other Apes did not evolve into humans, and rather than discuss the scientific aspects of it or the reasoning involved, you went way off course and attacked two words in my explanation. Honestly, is that your reasoning for why evolution is false? The reason why the other Apes have not evolved into humans is completely false because the definition of 'theory' and 'accepted' is disputed via wikipedia definitions? Redefining the term 'theory' from a non-scientific point of view does not disprove the idea, and is not even close to a rebuttal.

And if it makes you feel better, throw everything that I've said away and simply provide evidence for your God. I really don't care if you find Evolution to be true or if you believe the Law of Gravity to be true (after all, it's just a law defined by man right?); these things are not required in any way for the atheist viewpoint to be valid. Just give me the evidence for BibleGod, that's all. That's it, one piece of evidence. You've given me nothing this entire time. You feel that you've disproven my Loch Ness monster, which somehow proves that your Bigfoot exists? [insert link from CNN here...] No, you must still prove your Bigfoot. And there are many Bigfoots claimed by people all over the world, so you must also prove that yours is the REAL Bigfoot. I anticipate the sound of crickets chirping from the next email on this subject.


Please feel free to share this with as many people as you'd like, as I'm more than confident in the points that I've made. Is it okay if I do the same? I hate to see this time and effort go to waste without anyone ever seeing it and learning from it.


Evidence for BibleGod Julio, that's all I ask. You believe in Him, so give me the evidence, ANY evidence, that leads you to understand without a doubt that BibleGod is the one true Creator, over all the other Gods available. You should be able to go directly from your evidence to the statement, 'BibleGod must be the one true God, and Jesus is His son'. I will show your evidence to be highly suspect at a minimum, if not completely invalid. And I know I can do this, because your God is the same as every other God created in the minds of men throughout history, past, present, and future. It is completely imaginary.

Good luck, and may you be blessed by all that Allah has to offer you in this life,
Pastor D

-----------------------

Thank you very much for reading, hopefully you've enjoyed the discussion and have learned a few things about atheism and the atheistic perspective!

An Atheist and Christian Debate: Part 9

This is our Christian subject's last post on the matter. My conclusion will be posted later this week, and will mark the conclusion of this discussion. In this email, we see more ridiculous assertions being made and more absurd questions being asked.


Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:49:12 -0700
From: Julio
Subject: Re: Research Volunteers Needed
To: Daniel

Hello my sunshine, sorry for the delayed response. I been putting in some crazy hours into this business and haven't had much time to sit down and shoot the breeze with my boy :-)

You seem to shut me down fairly quickly. You mention that I don't address your email when in fact I feel that I do. Questions like 'will your church allow you to.....etc' has been answered in my previous emails but I'm not sure if your doing speed reading and skipping here and there, but I have responded to you with the BEST of my knowledge, I have not simply told you 'end of discussion' or I'm not going to answer that. We're full grown men and I think we can carry a mature conversation without shutting down or getting frustrated. Patience is inside of you, you just gotta work it my nig!

Those websites you mentioned, I know nothing of and didn't bother going to the internet, again I'm answering to the best of MY knowledge. My 'crafty' words to describe theory is nothing crafty its just the simple plain definition just like looking up the word 'Giraffe'. A theory is a theory until proven otherwise. Take gravity, everyday I get out of bed hoping I can defy gravity like that nigga Jordan or fly like a bird but we know its not going to happen. Something (that being gravity) keeps us in order right here on the ground and I love it, I love science, I really do. All I'm trying to say is that there is no proof that we come from molecules, again, from a neutral persons point of view, WE WILL NEVER KNOW and that's just reality. We don't have solid fossils that are billions (not millions) of years old to show solid proof of how man became man, if I remember correctly the oldest fossil is no more than a couple hundred thousand years old. Let's just say I did believe this evolution theory, I still haven't been proven on how the Hominidae species got here in the first place, so I would still be stuck and be forced to believe in something that I have not seen, kind of like God.

Don't fight me and tell me that evolution takes million and millions of years because that statement in its own is already headed towards a guess, like my theory of God.

Just like we live gravity everyday and everyday gravity proves its self and its principals. I dropped a cup the other day and it broke, gravity reminded me of its principals and guess what! Gravity worked, it pulled the cup down (Don't you! My Dad's a Physicist!)[editor's note: inside joke]. I personally have applied certain biblical principles and they worked, would I have applied those principals if I never read the Bible more than likely the answer is 'no', for me at least. But that's me, I just feel in my heart that I would have never exercised these principals if it wasn't for this 'book'. Some people call it luck, chance, or coincidence and I keep quite and respect that (unless its the right time or they ask) but when I'm told that, all I can think of is that I just believe in something greater. I don't fight it, that's too complicated and puts more stress in my life, I just believe in it and move on. What can I say I'm human. If certain things go right for you and your beliefs cause you to give thanks to yourself only, then great, why fight it its too complicated to sit down and figure out who else to give thanks too for every thing that goes right in your life, that's your belief and I respect that.

That's another beauty of all this were all different, imagine everyone had the same personalities, gestures, voice, etc, that would be boring. Why are we all different? I don't know I just live with it and move on, to try to figure that out is too complicated. Why worry about something with insignificant value in our eyes, I have a family waiting for me everyday expecting nothing but the best from me, that in itself is hard work and enough worry. My best is directly connected to principals that I've learned from my little book, that's where I learned them and have succeeded. Your best is connected to something else, maybe principals that you've learned as you grew up or were taught by your family and whether you learned them or were told about them your credit goes to that person or book accordingly. If you read a book about family and because of that book you learned new principals/laws of family and due to that your family is at peace then I'm sure some credit would go to that book where you gained that knowledge, right?

My physical proof and evidence of existence of God/Jesus that you wish to see is as profoned as that one molecule where we came from that's billions and billions of years old that you have showed me and is held in that one museum..........there's is none to date for your argument or mine.

Sincerely,
Julio G-Strang

An Atheist and Christian Debate: Part 8

Part 8 today, part 9 and the conclusion will follow as soon as I get a chance. I've been pretty busy with real work, my apologies for the delay.

PS: I still have comments to respond to. I always respond to my comments, so please hang in there until I get some time.

----- Original Message ----
From: Daniel
To: Julio
Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 11:17:08 AM
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed

There's nothing more to discuss here. You are defining the scientific term 'theory' outside of the bounds of science. Did you know that gravity is also a theory? General Relativity, as Einstein 'shot from the hip' with, is also just a 'theory'. If you contend that theories are just complete guesses and speculation, then we can talk no further on this subject. I assume that you don't consider the rest of the 'theories' which you agree with to be merely guesses and speculation...it's only the ones that go against your faith which you MUST disagree with.

We still are left with myself ready to believe anything you want me to believe, as long as you provide evidence. You've not provided one shred of unambiguous evidence for your positive claim of God, or more importantly, Jesus. Rather than provide me the evidence for your positive claim, you instead have taken a .99c flyswatter to flail against the evil scientific community's unproven, untested, speculative 'guesses'. This does nothing to prove God or Jesus, and it does nothing to disprove the evidence which supports the theories of Evolution, Gravity, General Relativity, Conservation of Energy, etc. Science is founded on 'theories', and these theories can be (and are) testable, repeatable, and proven beyond a 'reasonable' doubt. Crafty word play on the definition of 'theory' does not change this fact.

Scientists are not evil, and science is not evil. The only people who oppose science are religious leaders (and their flocks of sheep), because it threatens the beliefs that they cling to. I've been to many creationist websites, and I can see that your information has come from there (or from someone who teaches creationism). I recognize the same arguments, the "God of the Gaps" ideas, and the misrepresentation of the word 'theory'. Perhaps you've been reading: http://www.answersingenesis.org/ , or http://www.allaboutcreation.org/ ? Equating scientific theories and religious 'theories' is probably another thing that creationism teaches, but it is completely wrong. Completely wrong. I could explain this to you in a simple sentence, but honestly if you can't figure this out, then there's no reason for me to tell you.

I'm not gonna sit here and teach you the theory of evolution. I gave a little explanation in the previous email, but it seems that you weren't interested in discussing the validity of the argument, but rather the semantics involved. I answered your question about apes and humans; if you want to know more, then you gotta take a real science class on it (a class that doesn't have the word 'creation' in it). Discuss your problems with the word 'theory' with the professor, and he'll clear it up for you (or maybe you'll clear it up for him). Will your church allow you to take a course on evolution (physical anthropology) at the local junior college, or is this frowned upon? Are you just choosing not to understand this?

"If I asked that your evolution belief doesn't allow you to believe in other things, your mind goes crazy and tells its self "is Julio crazy doesn't he know that, etc......""

My evolution 'belief' doesn't prevent me from believing other things. I could very well believe in God and evolution, no problem. Science doesn't tell me what I can and cannot do There is no agenda behind science, but there is an agenda behind anti-science. You're misrepresenting the stance of the non-religious, and you're again equating two things which are not equal.

"P.S-You still haven't answered my question. I am interested in knowing the reasons why you think a God "does" exist. You volunteered to let me know and asked if I was interested and I'm letting you know to give it to me my Nig!"

It's a waste of time/energy and will only lead us to discuss scripture forever and ever. If you begin providing evidence that God exists, and that Jesus is that God, then I'll give you my reasons. I was actually going to give you my reasons in an earlier email, but it got lost in the rest of the discussion.


You've made the claim for God and Jesus, still waiting for your evidence,
-Pastor D

An Atheist and Christian Debate: Part 7

And so we've come to the last few installments of this debate. At this point, it's apparent that Julio's understanding of evolution (and science in general) is completely screwy , and has been poisoned by Christian propaganda and pseudo-science.

-------------------------------
To: Daniel
Subject: Re: Research Volunteers Needed
From: Julio
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 03:01:03 +0000

I'll try me best to keep this short.

Evolution is a theory! A theory, is a guess, a speculation or what you call "shooting from the hip". This Darwin guy who CAME UP with this explanation/belief (or rather enforced it to great measures) said it himself, its a "theory". Like I mentioned many emails ago that evolution is a form of belief for something that man has and will never see, obviously we can't be alive for 10 million years, so hence theory.

Part of evolution is mutation which makes it part of your belief, in other words when you see "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" you must be in "aww!". All kidding aside, and as a neutral party would say you or anyone for that matter cannot prove evolution for obvious reasons but yet you have faith in that "my son". If I questioned the very creator of this evolution theory, he would tell me the same "you just have to believe in this".

You're asking me to prove the existence of God when yet you yourself or anyone cannot prove evolution, and when I ask for proof I don't want a theory or old fossils that "might" lead us to "believe" in evolution. The chief weakness of evolution lies in the "many gaps" that are not filled. Scientist this very day are arguing and questioning these big gaps, this is were one of the many controversies of evolution begins, like immediate mutation compared to gradual mutation or if mutation exists period, yet another thing that is not proven but a simple theory.

Again, your belief is in Evolution, does it really exists? I don't know its still a theory, a speculation, a guess. In one of your emails you asked me to take a class but I have to go in their and "believe" not just go their to out right reject it, the point is you want me to go in their and believe. The belief in God is what many people say is another theory the only difference is what theory are you going to go with, both require faith. Yes, "faith"! Faith is not only a biblical term but part of the English language that means "confidence or trust in a thing". Your trust/confidence is in evolution, mine is in God.

Your quote:

"You have absolutely no scientific basis for believing that the theory of evolution is false. In fact, nobody does...that's why it's still accepted as fact."

Two words in your statement that stand out about the very solid proof of our evolution existence, you mentioned "theory" and "accepted". Both have to do with something that is not sure and like Christianity is accepted. So the very thing that you call silly because of no proof or lack of substantial proof is exactly what you believe in. Your theory is that we were all molecules millions and billions of years ago and some how all these molecules got to together to form your stomach, your heart, your lungs, your brain, your miles and miles of veins, and uniquely these molecules knew there had to be a penis and vagina for reproduction but most importantly the molecules understood the entire function of the body and how every organ is critical for our well being.

And to clarify, its not that I'm allowed or not allowed to believe in other things, its purely by choice. The same exact choice and flexibility you had to change from a Christian to an agnostic/Atheist is the same flexibilty I have, were no different in that regard. Yet you choose what you choose, again purely by choice. If I asked that your evolution belief doesn't allow you to believe in other things, your mind goes crazy and tells its self "is Julio crazy doesn't he know that, etc......" Well that's the same exact thing that goes through my mind.

P.S-You still haven't answered my question. I am interested in knowing the reasons why you think a God "does" exist. You volunteered to let me know and asked if I was interested and I'm letting you know to give it to me my Nig!
(I want you to make it a point to respond to this on your next email)

I tried to keep it short but I think I failed.

Sincerely,
Donatello (I think its the red turtle)!

An Atheist and Christian Debate: Part 6

What do you get when you mix together Bill Gates, atheism, Warren Buffet, Evolution, Creationism, 'The Secret' and unicorns? A shitload of frustration...

------------------------
To: Daniel
Subject: Re: Research Volunteers Needed
From: Julio
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008

You are either reading to quickly through my careless email to you and not understanding. I really don't want to go through the same thing twice, for example:

Your Bill & Warren example.

You got what I was trying to communicate just that you always have your guard up, this is a "discussion" not a battle that's why we told each other in the beggining about being open minded about our responses. Thus far you have had a closed mind. Yes! I would want to ask Bill & Warren that one question, again, that's why its important to have success to attract. You can't tell me that success (again, don't just think money) has nothing to do with attraction! Once you attract that person or a group due to your success where they go next is totally up to the person being looked up too. This true whether you believe in evolution, God, Allah,etc. Success attracts, period! I will take that person to different mindset than what you would and vice versa, its kinda like a race foo'. I'm just answering your "God doesn't give a dam" part of your reply.

The other responses you have about consistency I am not going to bother answering and waste my finger tips since you already said you don't want to discuss anything about "unicorns" unless you believe it exists.

"You don't understand evolution"

The same frustration that goes through your mind on how I lack "evolution" knowledge is exactly how I feel about you lacking knowledge about other beliefs. I don't have to go through a Anthropology class to tell you that scientist have a belief too!

Example: When I was a lil' younger I was in a class that had to do with creation/evolution. Let me break this down to you from my eyes. Scientist do have these fossils and evidence (whatever it may be), your right! Let me tell you where my problem is about this so called "evidence". After lining up all these fossils and discoveries that date many centuries, after reading big fat/thick text books(hmm, that sounds familiar),anyways, after hundreds of years of "evidence" these scientist discovered and they keep collecting, this is what it says in a nutshell "scientist discovered X fossils or made X discoveries, this is why scientist BELIEVE that humans/creation/evolution exist or have evolved to......."This is what it says in all the textbooks in the world that you call "evidence". That word "BELIEVE" is in their, this means that its a belief in something that they have not seen they don't have that one piece of evidence that can GUARANTEE 100% on how man came to be man.

If I'm wrong please enlighten me, don't just shut down on me and say "you don't understand so I won't answer that part of this discussion." Here is your chance to win a "soul" for the atheist. Why the heck would I wanna be warned about "creationist" websites when I have the King Atheist at my finger tips, give it to me and give it to me raw!

So the question stands, "does evolution exist"?

What would it take for me to stop believing in God?

For the sake of discussion, here you go! I want to see the precise hard evidence that shows how man became man? I want you to tell me how the Ape came and was born in this world? I want to know how the very first mammal was created? Why haven't the Apes on this Earth turned into Human Beings if this is their so called process? (Its tough I know, but your belief is in scientist and "limited" fossils and evidence that's here now, the magic word will always be there forever "scientist BELIEVE...")

Hit me off Pastor D!

Sincerely,
Captain America


----------------------------------


From: Daniel
To: Julio
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:35:27 -0700

The evidence that we evolved from Apes is much greater than the evidence that we were created as-is by God. An understanding of evolution is key to understanding this.

What class did you take on evolution? If it consisted of creationism, than it is not a science class at all. Creationism is not science, because it cannot be proven or disproven. Science can be disproven by anyone, anywhere. Have you actually tried disproving the theory of evolution, or are you just shooting from the hip?

You can no more prove that God created us than I can prove that we were created by martians. However, the difference is that I do not need to prove to you that Unicorns don't exist. You are the one making the claim for God, so it is up to you to prove your claim. You've done nothing but preach and draw odd conclusions for Jesus based on financial success. That is not proof.

Again, you show that you don't understand the theory of evolution with your question about why Apes have not yet turned into human beings. If you want to understand evolution, than I suggest you take a course on Physical Anthropology and Evolution from an accredited college, non-religious school, and discuss why it is all fake with the Professor. It could do wonders for you: There is a person that we both know who went from Christian to agnostic/atheist based almost solely on a Physical Anthropology class. Of course, maybe your religious convictions prevent you from learning anything that goes against it?

It is completely acceptable to answer the question "Where did life begin" with a simple "I don't know". There is no reason to say that you do know, when you don't. I do not know. That doesn't mean I will never know. For example, fifty years ago nobody would have dreamed that the internet was possible. Does that mean that it was impossible? Of course not. It's possible that we'll learn the origin of life, and it's possible that we won't. What we shouldn't be doing is filling in the blanks based on a book full of evil deeds, magic spells and scientific impossibilities, and pretend that we know. We shouldn't be obstructing the very science that can uncover the answers to our existence.

I've said a couple times now that I'm ready to learn about why God exists, and why Jesus is that God. You've done nothing to prove to me that it exists. Do I know where we came from? Of course not. Do you know where we came from? Apparently, yes. You know exactly how the universe began, and exactly what happens when we die, and exactly which God is the correct God. You know that evolution is impossible for man (no matter the evidence), that gay people cannot be born gay (no matter the evidence), and that saying "fuck" makes Jesus sad. And all of that without any type of science whatsoever. It's so simple!

I, on the other hand, do not know these things. I am more than ready to learn them, but the extraordinary claims that you make require extraordinary evidence to support them. You've provided nothing to back up your claims. Why, in a hundred billion years, would I ever believe you when you don't give me proof, logical argument, and rational reasoning? Is it because I should be scared of Hell? Or maybe I should just be really happy to go to Heaven? Is it because I'll be rich or successful? Maybe I'm secretly feeling lost, and I'm longing for that little extra something?

The only people who have a problem with science are those who are scared of it disproving their most cherished beliefs. You have absolutely no scientific basis for believing that the theory of evolution is false. In fact, nobody does...that's why it's still accepted as fact. Anybody, any single person on this earth, is welcome to disprove it and show that the evidence is wrong, and scientists would have to accept it. You are also welcome to prove that the theory of gravity is false, any time you please. Nobody has.

"The other responses you have about consistency I am not going to bother answering and waste my finger tips since you already said you don't want to discuss anything about "unicorns" unless you believe it exists."

I'm more than happy keeping it right there if you'd like. There's nothing more to be said if you can't at least show me why it's more likely that God exists than not. If I wanted a sermon, I'd go to church. But there's nothing at church except a guy describing an invisible unicorn to people...and those people are taught not to question whether the unicorn exists.


Pastor D


--------------------------------------

EDITOR'S NOTE:
At this point I'm ready to drive my head through a wall. It's so frustrating, that I actually send Julio a follow-up email and begin to explain the very basics of evolution. Not that it would get me anywhere, but it sure as hell made me feel better.


From: Daniel
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:59:36 -0700
To: Julio
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed

You want some understanding of evolution, I'll give you a little bit with a response to your "Apes" thing, just to show you that I'm not bullshitting you. Honestly, I'm not teaching you evolution...you want to understand, you gotta get a formal teaching in a college class. And I may be a bit rusty on it, but I got teh core down.

For evolution to occur, there needs to be a couple things:
1) A need to evolve
2) Time, and lots of it

Apes have evolved over time, millions of years. The apes that you see today are different than their ancestors were 10 million years ago. They evolved because they had a need to evolve as a species (ie have better defenses against predators, live in safer places, etc).

The apes that you see today occupy their niche in nature quite well. Thus, they have no real need to evolve. But aren't they going extinct, you ask? Why yes grasshopper, they are! But that is because we are taking their land, and hunting them for meat. But don't they have a reason to evolve then? Why yes, they do! But they don't have millions of years to evolve anymore, because we are here. We shit all over the creatures of the earth. We take their space, eat them, domesticate them, whatever.

The very nature of evolution means that we cannot see it occur today in real-time. That's really a silly suggestion, completely counter to what it's all about. Evolution needs time. The fossil record, however, shows evolution progressing. You can see creatures of all types changing over time, including Apes. If you aren't allowed to believe in that sort of thing though, I don't really know what to tell you. You can see it for yourself in class anytime you want, but not if you flat-out refuse to believe it. Your refusal doesn't change the data though.

Why didn't the other apes become humans too? Because they had no need to. They occupy their niche well. Why aren't all dog species the same (wolves, dingos, domesticated, etc)? Why aren't all cats the same (lions, tigers, cheetahs, etc)? Because they don't need to be, each one works well where it is.

There you go, that's why Apes are not human beings, and that's why it's just a strange question to begin with. It's evolution, I don't know what else to tell you. If you don't want to accept it, then there's nothing I can do. I can't unaccept it, because it's real, accurate, and scientifically supported by evidence. It would be like unaccepting that 2+2=4.


BTW, feel free to share this entire email chain with anyone you'd like, including your pastor. I'd like to hear what he has to say about it. Trick him, tell him that you're seriously having your doubts about Jesus, and see what his response is. "You just gotta have faith, my son". I bet, for sure, that he won't respond 'scientifically'.


pastor d

-----------------------------------


Where does it go from here? Check back next week to find out!

An Atheist and Christian Debate: Part 5

Provided for your enjoyment is the latest installment of our discussion. Things are starting to heat up a bit as the responses are getting more direct and to the point.
----------------------------
From: Daniel
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:22:35 -0700
To: Julio
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed


Your original email, upon further review, is describing the intricate details of something which is unproven and illogical. It is the same as if I wrote a lengthy dissertation on the anatomy of a unicorn. You don't believe in unicorns, so when I talk about them, you wouldn't really have anything to say other than, "Prove to me that a unicorn exists before you start explaining things about it".

So, I'll respond with the short version. Everything in quotes is from your email.

"Well everything that I base myself on is what is extracted from the bible"

That doesn't mean the bible is the true word of God, or that anything within it is based on fact. A child can base their behavior off of Captain America. That doesn't mean that Captain America exists, or that he has magical powers.

"A few years passed and after studying and learning that He (God) wants nothing but the best for us..."

I want nothing but the best for me too. I don't need God for me to understand this, and I don't need to believe in magic in order to make this happen for me. I'm completely happy without God, as are millions of atheists (and Buddhists) around the world.

"As an individual here on Earth, if I spoke to you about the Word of God and you seen my sad and depressing life would it be attractive enough for you to ask me "Hey Julio, what is it in your life 'cause I want the same?". What if it was the opposite, would you then care to ask that one question that can possibly lead to greater things?"

Believing in Jesus has nothing to do with success or failure, happiness or sadness. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are two of the richest men in the world, and they don't believe in Jesus. Do you care to ask them the one question that could possibly lead to greater things?

"The same fuel that keeps your fire burning about a non existent God, that turning point in your life should have been used to drive you to hit it harder, so next time a question comes up you might be able to respond."

I've already answered this with my Easter Bunny analogy. Believing in unbelievable things is ridiculous, irrational and illogical. There is no response, other than "you gotta have faith". Do you have faith in the Easter Bunny? Would you be respectful of me if I believed in the Easter Bunny with all my heart, and told everyone that they were going to hell if they didn't also believe?

"He is a consistent God"

And if your consistent God called for the stoning of homosexuals, then you can only assume that, being consistent, he would still be happy if we did that today. If not, then he is inconsistent. We are not God; Just because we don't want to do that today doesn't mean that God wouldn't still be happy if we did. Two-thousand years ago, believers stoned homosexuals, and God was happy. God has not changed, and man can't change God. Jesus dying for our sins didn't change the things that makes God happy, or change his instructions for how to deal with abominations.


Everything else I'm reading is citing the Bible and what God says. I believe the Bible the same way that you believe the Koran. I believe what God says the same way you believe what Brahma and Shiva say. In other words, I don't. You are explaining the anatomy of a unicorn to me, and I don't believe in unicorns. There's really nothing for me to respond to, other than to ask you to prove that Jesus is real, and that he is better than Allah, Brahma, and the Jewish God Yahweh.

"...there are questions about your beliefs as well as mine that cannot be answered, period. I believe this world was created by God, you believe its a science. If we were both asked to prove it well you simply would just have to believe and have faith in science, while I would have to have faith in God. No human being was alive when Earth was physically created so in essence you do believe in a "story" that's told by scientist, that's your religion/belief/truth per say, that's still a form of belief or faith in something that you did not see or that anyone seen for that matter. You can say, "its silly to think that God simply created man" and ask "prove it Julio". I can turn around and ask you "prove to me that man evolved from Ape", you can't. I been alive 28 years on this Earth and I haven't seen any Fox 11 breaking news that a zoo has an Ape that finally turned into a Man. If Man truly evolved from an Ape then why the heck are all these Apes dying without going through their "normal" process of becoming a human being, rather silly don't you think?"

1) Most questions about your belief in Jesus can be answered, if you want to answer them.

2) Science consists of evidence which can be proven or disproven. You are more than welcome to disprove any scientific theory you like, at any time. Submit your evidence for why any theory is false to the scientific community for peer review, and they will either agree or disagree based on your evidence. Faith, on the other hand, requires you to believe things based on a lack of evidence.

By the way, did you answer my question: "What would it take for you to stop believing in God?"


3) You completely don't understand evolution. Please don't take that personally, it's not meant to be mean. I don't understand Real Estate, no big deal. Physical Anthropology 1, at the local community college, will explain evolution. With evidence, with fossils, with complete explanation; no faith involved. Everything you could possibly want to know about Evolution, right there in front of you.

I'm not going to explain evolution to you. However, I would suggest staying off of creationist websites because they are intentionally misleading about evolution. I just had a youth pastor ask me for my opinion of a website's "facts" on evolution. I broke everything down for him, and he was surprised that it was so misleading. Intentionally misleading.

Please don't explain the details and cite the Bible as your source, because you haven't proven the Bible yet. I want to see proof of why Jesus exists before there's any discussion of why he loves me. You wouldn't want me explaining the anatomy of a unicorn to you without first proving the unicorn, right?

"When will you stop investing your time in trying to convince people that God doesn't exist and start looking for this god of yours that might exist?"

I'm ready to find God, which one do I start with? What evidence should I begin reviewing in my search?


I'm not gonna be around this weekend to answer/read this stuff, but if you send it i'll check it out when i get back.

later,
pastor d

An Atheist and Christian Debate: Part 4

We pick up the discussion again with a series of shorter emails and quick exchanges. If you've missed the first parts of the discussion, they are located here:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Check back later this week for part 5 of An Atheist and Christian Debate.

From: Daniel
To: Julio
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:38:44 -0700
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed

lol @ Mexican Ape, gimme some time to respond to this. i will say quickly that Bill the Janitor definitely would be jealous, regardless of whether he has a right to feel jealous or not. i also add that, sometimes when people are laughed at for thinking silly things, it's because they really are thinking silly things. if i told you i believed in the easter bunny, you would have every right to laugh at me and question me. should i continue driving on in my easter bunny belief, or consider that maybe that the easter bunny doesn't exist?

sorry for the grammar, i got some other stuff i'm doing and can't take too much time here

word
dan

-----------------------
From: Julio
To: Daniel
Subject: Re: Research Volunteers Needed
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:57:05 +0000

Take your time, no rush. I understand this can get long and get the mind thinking.
I have never heard of the easter bunny belief ever in my life, I thought it was just a cute trademark all this time. Maybe you can fill me in on that as well Pastor D.

Ughhh!!!
-Julio


-----------------------
From: Daniel
To: Julio
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 12:12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed

You've never heard of the Easter Bunny? That's the bunny that hops like a bunny, but lays eggs like a chicken. Where do you think all those eggs come from on Easter? I'm telling you, you gotta believe in the Easter Bunny. Some people claim that since I can't prove the Easter Bunny, that this means that He doesn't exist. But they are silly, because we all know that they can't prove that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. Ha, what do you think of that!? You know what else I tell them? I tell them that I see, hear and feel Lord Bunnies presence every day. There are people who have been healed by the Easter Bunny...people with poor eyesight have been healed by Lord Bunnies magical carrots. Why don't you tell those people that the Easter Bunny is fake! Just today, I asked the Easter Bunny for strength and confidence...I'm feeling better already!

Even the Easter Bunny says, 'You must become like little children in order to gain entrance into my garden." Is it any wonder that millions of children across the world believe in the Easter Bunny? I say that the only reason people can't see the Easter Bunny, is because they don't want to see. Their minds are closed to the truths of the Easter Bunny.

PS: If you don't believe in the Easter Bunny, you're going to hell forever.

-dan

-----------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:57:10 -0700
From: Julio
To: Daniel
Subject: Re: Research Volunteers Needed

Let's not get facetious....stick to the topic at hand before I slap you across the neck!!

-julio


-----------------------
From: Daniel
To: Julio
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:26:16 PM
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed

Actually, that's not being facetious. I'm making the point that believing in God and Jesus is based on the exact same logic and thinking. There's no evidence that God or Jesus exists any more than unicorns, Santa Claus or magical fairies.

The only supposed evidence for Jesus (as the Messiah) comes from the Bible...much like evidence for Zeus and unicorns comes from Greek mythology. In fact, mythology at least included illustrations and drawings of their fictional beings. Did any of the disciples ever draw a picture of Jesus? Isn't it strange that the only images of Jesus that we have come a thousand years later by painters and sculptors, when he's shown as an Italian guy? Jesus was supposed to have shown himself to about 400 people after rising from the dead. Wow, that's pretty underwhelming to say the least. He could have returned as a huge being over the entire earth, to all peoples. Everyone on earth would have wrote about it, and it would STILL require faith to believe that it happened. But he didn't do this...and even the 400 people didn't write about what they saw. Just the four. In short, using the Bible as evidence for Jesus is like using Hyundai sales material as evidence that they are good cars.

Prayer does not work, yet people delude themselves into thinking that it does. Once the question arises, "Well, let's test it by praying for peace on earth, or food for starving children, etc", an excuse is made. Christians go to their 'safe zone' every time someone wants to test things out. Yet just last night on "The Dog Whisperer", there's a Christian claiming that Jesus answered his prayer for dog help by sending out Caesar Millan. It's really disgusting...this guy thinks Jesus cares about his dog, while children are being raped and murdered in the Sudan. But he thinks this, he truly believes that God sent Caesar for him.

I haven't spent much on this because I'm actually in a discussion on my gaming forum about this very thing. Here's a question I've asked them:

"What would it take for you as a Christian to stop believing in God and Jesus?"

What would your answer to this question be, my Mexican Ape friend?

Of course, there have not been any answers on the forums, because NOTHING can cause you to stop believing. That is why these discussions cannot be undergone in a rational and reasonable way. Atheists can believe anything, we aren't set in our ways at all. We just require evidence before we start believing in unreasonable things that go counter to the evidence we have. My evidence says that people cannot walk on water: Four people claiming that it happened 2000 years ago, and 40 years after the event, is not enough to change this. If this is proof for you, than I suggest you also read about Joseph Smith and the Mormons. They claim miracles that occurred just 150 years ago! Isn't that proof and evidence more reliable?


For the record, there are quite a few things that I can think of which would cause me to seriously consider that God exists. I'll let you know if you're interested.


Gotta go, Big Smooth just walked in.

dan


-----------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:00:11 -0700
From: Julio
To: Daniel
Subject: Re: Research Volunteers Needed

Pastor D,
I'm not sure if your last emails were your official response to my novel that I wrote to you and I appreciate the large quantity of questions that you have. I feel that I have answered most of yours as best as I could as we go back and forth. I have yet to receive the answers to the questions that I had for you in my last "lengthy" response, for the sake of discussion I feel its only fair that you answer the questions I have about your "scientifical religion/belief". Is this forthcoming or am I just holding my breath for nothing here.

"For the record, there are quite a few things that I can think of which would cause me to seriously consider that God exists. I'll let you know if you're interested."

Of course I would like to know, this is what were here for to communicate with one another foo'!
Your Playboy Bunny,
Julio