Matthew 24:34
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

December 31, 2008

An Atheist and Christian Debate: Part 3

Just in time for the New Year holiday, I bring you the third installment of Julio and I going at it. Stay tuned, there is still much more to come. I've made a minor edit to the name of our workplace, and clarified the quoting and format, but otherwise everything is verbatim from the email.

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:53:12 -0700
From: Julio
Subject: Re: Research Volunteers Needed
To: Daniel

Hello Pastor D, I'll get straight to it just like your neck:-)

Your response......"There is nothing you've stated that requires the Bible or Jesus....."

Well everything that I base myself on is what is extracted from the bible in regards to the "truths and principals" in itself, without studying it this conversation would have ended at "We needed your input". Maybe I was misunderstood, there aren't "different levels" of heaven rather different positions. Just like here on Earth, same Earth but everyone has different positions, Bill the janitor is a janitor (or was, not sure) but why in the world do you hold a higher position than him as knowledgeable technician? He shouldn't be jealous because I'm sure that any wise and common sense person, like Bill, would tell you that he has no reason in his right mind to be jealous, you have earned the position that your in because of your labor/work that you have put in, or lack of. If you made it big time at (edit: workplace removed), as an X Class Engineer, knowing you put in diligent work and say I didn't, then the fact that I was lazy and settled for less because I'm happy with my little Tech position, then the understanding is obvious no extra effort, no extra rewards.

"Success" here on Earth is definitely not just financially, like I mentioned before, success is a well balanced life. Success includes your family, your relationships, physical (health), mentally, spiritually, etc. Conformity in this world has caused a lot of people to think and connect success with money. Success on this Earth is a major role to God's ultimate plan. Example: When I use to work at the Morgue (I was about 17-18yrs old), very frequently I use to have to go to downtown LA to pick up a Catholic priest at his apartment that was going to do the funeral service. Well obviously he talked about God and his personal life. On our little journey back to the morgue he mentioned he wasn't married, no family, no children, no car to get around and he projected loneliness; he preached to me like any other priest would about following the Word. I remember telling myself "if this is an end result of following God, I DON'T WANT THAT". A few years passed and after studying and learning that He (God) wants nothing but the best for us, I understood that people were too busy trying to "interpret" the principals of the bible but its there in plain English, there's nothing to interpret, He wants nothing but the best.

As an individual here on Earth, if I spoke to you about the Word of God and you seen my sad and depressing life would it be attractive enough for you to ask me "Hey Julio, what is it in your life 'cause I want the same?". What if it was the opposite, would you then care to ask that one question that can possibly lead to greater things? So, would you? The reality is success (don't just think money) here on Earth is important to attract the multitudes, makes sense right? Jesus was attractive to a lot of people, he had success here on Earth in the flesh, and when the people asked the "why", all glory went to God.

In response to [what you've said]: "You mention that you aren't perfect as a Christian. Perhaps you would be a more perfect Christian if you focused more on church and Christ, as opposed to work and success?"

My personal focus here on Earth is on God's original plan, who says you can't strive here on Earth and have fine things and work on God's plan concurrently. You were able to go to DeVry and study something you enjoyed while possibly focusing and working on other things right? I know I was able too, going to school & working, (edit: workplace removed) and real estate all while developing my faith and knowledge; we call it multi-tasking, being productive, getting busy. When I stated that I wasn't perfect it was geared more towards that I can do a lot more in respect to my life spiritually, physically, mentally, financially, etc. Putting in work for the "church" comes in many ways, church to many people is a physical building that in their eyes is holy. As soon as they drive up to the parking lot they turn to this obedient individual because they give weight to the physical structure they are about to walk into. It says in the bible "we are the church", are body is the temple, the house of the holy spirit. Once that building is empty its no longer holy, in other words where ever we are at we ourselves make that place what it is, the physical place doesn't make us.

Your statement "Have you forgotten, the rich man will find it easier to pass through the eye of the needle than gain entrance to Heaven?"

If you read only one verse prior to that you'll read that the young man Jesus was talking too was a young man who said "he went away sorrowful for he had great possessions" in other words, his possessions he was asked to give up were greater or meant more than doing God's purpose. So "yes" if your possessions/riches mean more to you than God's purpose it doesn't matter how much chedda you have, its going to be difficult. Remember He only doesn't seek a relationship with me but yet everyone, to think of only one relationship is too small for Him, but everyone here on Earth now that's big thinking.

Due to my beliefs I will give you my amateur opinion on why I feel its incorrect to be gay. Before I get to the "gay" portion of this, I want to make clear about the woman part, God created "Man" (that is mankind) which includes both male and female in his own image, which means he made them both equal. He also gave a mandate for mankind to subdue the Earth (that is have dominion over all Earth) and MULTIPLY. See God created the principal of the "seed" (for multiplication), everything on Earth has the ability to multiply itself.

Let me ask you a question, if you didn't marry a woman/female how would you be able to create another human being? You and every single living being out here has the seed; male and female are created uniquely for recreation, how can you multiply with male-to-male or female-to-female? You can't! So it goes against His word, His principal of the seed and if it goes against His principal of multiplication then you are knowingly rejecting Him. As you stated, what he wanted in the beginning is what he wants today, you're so right about that, He is a consistent God. Not to say if I ran into a gay person or happen to associate with a gay person, I dislike them and want to bash them, not at all, I would respect and love them as a human being but I would disapprove of their ways based on principals. Remember, God spoke to everyone, believers, non-believers, people of influence & people with no influence, the poor, the rich, etc. He didn't leave anyone out of the possibility of change!

Its tough as a 5th-6th grader to have a good understanding of the word and the true purpose, but the good news is that "yes" it only takes one time. You don't need to be the perfect human being to accept Him but remember the "knowledge of the truth" is whats sets us free. See once you have knowledge of the truth then there's no excuse to say "I didn't know", once you gain that knowledge it is your responsibility to act on it. Then you might say "ignorance is bliss" but ignorance kills. God didn't and doesn't create evil, if man disobeys then he gives birth to evil/consequences, but if he obeys then he gives birth to life. Obedience or disobedience gives birth to that "action" that is being taken. Example: There is a person who has an eating disorder, well just because they do all of God's works this doesn't mean that they won't pay the consequences of their actions in the flesh, there are Earthly/Physical principals being violated and that person will more than likely suffer from those consequences. Miracle acts (or as you would call it, the unexplainable) here on Earth is NOT the rule, miracles are the exception. Principals/Laws whether earthly or spiritually are placed to maintain order. Another reason why its important to know the earthly principals, like gravity, without gravity there wouldn't be order, without many things here on earth there wouldn't be any order.

Again, I'm just an amateur in all this. Prayer is something very touchy and at times difficult to understand. I'm not sure how you were taught the Word when growing up as a Christian but from my understanding and studying here's my take. God has given us ALL things (all means all, there is nothing outside of "all") he has given everyone the same resources and the same 24 hours as anyone on this planet. When God says you have been given "all" things and your faith is in-line with that, then asking God through prayer for something he has already done is rather insulting. So prayer becomes a declaration of things already done, a spirit of thanks giving. Instead of praying "God can you give me....." it should rather be "God thank you for giving us.....". If I need a pencil and you hand it to me but I keep asking for it while its already in my hands, then how can you give it to me again if I already have possession of it. God can't give you something you already have.

Based on what you said when you wrote about telling a couple people you were Christian and they laughed, well your faith at that point was being tested, what you did next was totally your choice but you chose to fold your cards instead of going to search for the correct answers. The same fuel that keeps your fire burning about a non existent God, that turning point in your life should have been used to drive you to hit it harder, so next time a question comes up you might be able to respond. Hopefully no one questions your existence here on Earth because if you fold easily again and can't find the answer I wouldn't want you to think that you have no choice but to sleep forever :-)

Like I mentioned to you before we can be here for days (and I don't mind) but there are questions about your beliefs as well as mine that cannot be answered, period. I believe this world was created by God, you believe its a science. If we were both asked to prove it well you simply would just have to believe and have faith in science, while I would have to have faith in God. No human being was alive when Earth was physically created so in essence you do believe in a "story" that's told by scientist, that's your religion/belief/truth per say, that's still a form of belief or faith in something that you did not see or that anyone seen for that matter.

You can say, "its silly to think that God simply created man" and ask "prove it Julio". I can turn around and ask you "prove to me that man evolved from Ape", you can't. I been alive 28 years on this Earth and I haven't seen any Fox 11 breaking news that a zoo has an Ape that finally turned into a Man. If Man truly evolved from an Ape then why the heck are all these Apes dying without going through their "normal" process of becoming a human being, rather silly don't you think? I'm sure if I spend enough time or time period on something that had no meaning to me or my family's life, like "scientifical explanations on creation" I can come up with tons of questions as you have in questioning the existence of God but since I spend most of my time in actions that will help us grow in our quality of life I only have limited questions for now that came up as I typed.

[you stated]".....I find it improbable (but not impossible) that God exists......"

Its been about 3-4 years since I left (edit: workplace removed), and you still have the same beliefs of a non existent God. When will you stop investing your time in trying to convince people that God doesn't exist and start looking for this god of yours that might exist?

Your Mexican Ape forever,

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