Provided for your enjoyment is the latest installment of our discussion. Things are starting to heat up a bit as the responses are getting more direct and to the point.
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From: Daniel
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:22:35 -0700
To: Julio
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed
Your original email, upon further review, is describing the intricate details of something which is unproven and illogical. It is the same as if I wrote a lengthy dissertation on the anatomy of a unicorn. You don't believe in unicorns, so when I talk about them, you wouldn't really have anything to say other than, "Prove to me that a unicorn exists before you start explaining things about it".
So, I'll respond with the short version. Everything in quotes is from your email.
That doesn't mean the bible is the true word of God, or that anything within it is based on fact. A child can base their behavior off of Captain America. That doesn't mean that Captain America exists, or that he has magical powers.
I want nothing but the best for me too. I don't need God for me to understand this, and I don't need to believe in magic in order to make this happen for me. I'm completely happy without God, as are millions of atheists (and Buddhists) around the world.
Believing in Jesus has nothing to do with success or failure, happiness or sadness. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are two of the richest men in the world, and they don't believe in Jesus. Do you care to ask them the one question that could possibly lead to greater things?
I've already answered this with my Easter Bunny analogy. Believing in unbelievable things is ridiculous, irrational and illogical. There is no response, other than "you gotta have faith". Do you have faith in the Easter Bunny? Would you be respectful of me if I believed in the Easter Bunny with all my heart, and told everyone that they were going to hell if they didn't also believe?
And if your consistent God called for the stoning of homosexuals, then you can only assume that, being consistent, he would still be happy if we did that today. If not, then he is inconsistent. We are not God; Just because we don't want to do that today doesn't mean that God wouldn't still be happy if we did. Two-thousand years ago, believers stoned homosexuals, and God was happy. God has not changed, and man can't change God. Jesus dying for our sins didn't change the things that makes God happy, or change his instructions for how to deal with abominations.
Everything else I'm reading is citing the Bible and what God says. I believe the Bible the same way that you believe the Koran. I believe what God says the same way you believe what Brahma and Shiva say. In other words, I don't. You are explaining the anatomy of a unicorn to me, and I don't believe in unicorns. There's really nothing for me to respond to, other than to ask you to prove that Jesus is real, and that he is better than Allah, Brahma, and the Jewish God Yahweh.
1) Most questions about your belief in Jesus can be answered, if you want to answer them.
2) Science consists of evidence which can be proven or disproven. You are more than welcome to disprove any scientific theory you like, at any time. Submit your evidence for why any theory is false to the scientific community for peer review, and they will either agree or disagree based on your evidence. Faith, on the other hand, requires you to believe things based on a lack of evidence.
By the way, did you answer my question: "What would it take for you to stop believing in God?"
3) You completely don't understand evolution. Please don't take that personally, it's not meant to be mean. I don't understand Real Estate, no big deal. Physical Anthropology 1, at the local community college, will explain evolution. With evidence, with fossils, with complete explanation; no faith involved. Everything you could possibly want to know about Evolution, right there in front of you.
I'm not going to explain evolution to you. However, I would suggest staying off of creationist websites because they are intentionally misleading about evolution. I just had a youth pastor ask me for my opinion of a website's "facts" on evolution. I broke everything down for him, and he was surprised that it was so misleading. Intentionally misleading.
Please don't explain the details and cite the Bible as your source, because you haven't proven the Bible yet. I want to see proof of why Jesus exists before there's any discussion of why he loves me. You wouldn't want me explaining the anatomy of a unicorn to you without first proving the unicorn, right?
I'm ready to find God, which one do I start with? What evidence should I begin reviewing in my search?
I'm not gonna be around this weekend to answer/read this stuff, but if you send it i'll check it out when i get back.
later,
pastor d
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From: Daniel
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:22:35 -0700
To: Julio
Subject: RE: Research Volunteers Needed
Your original email, upon further review, is describing the intricate details of something which is unproven and illogical. It is the same as if I wrote a lengthy dissertation on the anatomy of a unicorn. You don't believe in unicorns, so when I talk about them, you wouldn't really have anything to say other than, "Prove to me that a unicorn exists before you start explaining things about it".
So, I'll respond with the short version. Everything in quotes is from your email.
"Well everything that I base myself on is what is extracted from the bible"
That doesn't mean the bible is the true word of God, or that anything within it is based on fact. A child can base their behavior off of Captain America. That doesn't mean that Captain America exists, or that he has magical powers.
"A few years passed and after studying and learning that He (God) wants nothing but the best for us..."
I want nothing but the best for me too. I don't need God for me to understand this, and I don't need to believe in magic in order to make this happen for me. I'm completely happy without God, as are millions of atheists (and Buddhists) around the world.
"As an individual here on Earth, if I spoke to you about the Word of God and you seen my sad and depressing life would it be attractive enough for you to ask me "Hey Julio, what is it in your life 'cause I want the same?". What if it was the opposite, would you then care to ask that one question that can possibly lead to greater things?"
Believing in Jesus has nothing to do with success or failure, happiness or sadness. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are two of the richest men in the world, and they don't believe in Jesus. Do you care to ask them the one question that could possibly lead to greater things?
"The same fuel that keeps your fire burning about a non existent God, that turning point in your life should have been used to drive you to hit it harder, so next time a question comes up you might be able to respond."
I've already answered this with my Easter Bunny analogy. Believing in unbelievable things is ridiculous, irrational and illogical. There is no response, other than "you gotta have faith". Do you have faith in the Easter Bunny? Would you be respectful of me if I believed in the Easter Bunny with all my heart, and told everyone that they were going to hell if they didn't also believe?
"He is a consistent God"
And if your consistent God called for the stoning of homosexuals, then you can only assume that, being consistent, he would still be happy if we did that today. If not, then he is inconsistent. We are not God; Just because we don't want to do that today doesn't mean that God wouldn't still be happy if we did. Two-thousand years ago, believers stoned homosexuals, and God was happy. God has not changed, and man can't change God. Jesus dying for our sins didn't change the things that makes God happy, or change his instructions for how to deal with abominations.
Everything else I'm reading is citing the Bible and what God says. I believe the Bible the same way that you believe the Koran. I believe what God says the same way you believe what Brahma and Shiva say. In other words, I don't. You are explaining the anatomy of a unicorn to me, and I don't believe in unicorns. There's really nothing for me to respond to, other than to ask you to prove that Jesus is real, and that he is better than Allah, Brahma, and the Jewish God Yahweh.
"...there are questions about your beliefs as well as mine that cannot be answered, period. I believe this world was created by God, you believe its a science. If we were both asked to prove it well you simply would just have to believe and have faith in science, while I would have to have faith in God. No human being was alive when Earth was physically created so in essence you do believe in a "story" that's told by scientist, that's your religion/belief/truth per say, that's still a form of belief or faith in something that you did not see or that anyone seen for that matter. You can say, "its silly to think that God simply created man" and ask "prove it Julio". I can turn around and ask you "prove to me that man evolved from Ape", you can't. I been alive 28 years on this Earth and I haven't seen any Fox 11 breaking news that a zoo has an Ape that finally turned into a Man. If Man truly evolved from an Ape then why the heck are all these Apes dying without going through their "normal" process of becoming a human being, rather silly don't you think?"
1) Most questions about your belief in Jesus can be answered, if you want to answer them.
2) Science consists of evidence which can be proven or disproven. You are more than welcome to disprove any scientific theory you like, at any time. Submit your evidence for why any theory is false to the scientific community for peer review, and they will either agree or disagree based on your evidence. Faith, on the other hand, requires you to believe things based on a lack of evidence.
By the way, did you answer my question: "What would it take for you to stop believing in God?"
3) You completely don't understand evolution. Please don't take that personally, it's not meant to be mean. I don't understand Real Estate, no big deal. Physical Anthropology 1, at the local community college, will explain evolution. With evidence, with fossils, with complete explanation; no faith involved. Everything you could possibly want to know about Evolution, right there in front of you.
I'm not going to explain evolution to you. However, I would suggest staying off of creationist websites because they are intentionally misleading about evolution. I just had a youth pastor ask me for my opinion of a website's "facts" on evolution. I broke everything down for him, and he was surprised that it was so misleading. Intentionally misleading.
Please don't explain the details and cite the Bible as your source, because you haven't proven the Bible yet. I want to see proof of why Jesus exists before there's any discussion of why he loves me. You wouldn't want me explaining the anatomy of a unicorn to you without first proving the unicorn, right?
"When will you stop investing your time in trying to convince people that God doesn't exist and start looking for this god of yours that might exist?"
I'm ready to find God, which one do I start with? What evidence should I begin reviewing in my search?
I'm not gonna be around this weekend to answer/read this stuff, but if you send it i'll check it out when i get back.
later,
pastor d
Posts
I currently host an online religious forum/blog, titled 'The Smalley Debate', and I'm the Design Editor for the 'American Atheist' a nationally published magazine from the folks at atheists.org, and American Atheist, Inc.
ReplyDeleteI would like to start by saying I appreciate your candor and passion for reason, and hope to continue reading your material as it matures.
As a bit of advice from a debate standpoint - I can respectfully say, you have allowed your opponent to set to the tone of the discussion, meaning you are arguing in his terms. You are ‘speaking Christian.’ As American Atheist Press author David Eller warns in his book 'Atheism Advanced,' religion is nothing but a language which can be neither correct nor disproved, but simply discredited. By speaking this Christian's language, using the term 'God' as a name, speaking of 'heaven' and 'hell' as actual places, you are in fact helping to prove his case even by stating it doesn’t exist.
I suggest for you to use terms such as 'the Christian god', and 'supposed afterlife' and 'so-called, spiritually evil' which will not only remove yourself from his language, but also provoke your opponent to think about why you used the term that way. It will help him realize his religion is but one of many languages, which can never be true, but only different from others.
My blog is located at http://davidsmalley.blogspot.com and if you wish to sign up for the magazine, it’s about $40 for the entire year, with a discount for students - at atheists.org.
I hope to hear from you soon.
David Smalley
Thank you very much for your comment David.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with you that I've fallen into the web that's been woven by my Christian friend. In fact, I think I've helped weave it myself :(
I also do agree with you that Christian ideas such as "Salvation", "Heaven", and "Hell" should be referred to in a way which disarms them of any legitimacy. These are make-believe terms for a make-believe religion. In fact, I've suggested to others that they not capitalize the term "he" when referring to BibleGod, as it reinforces the Christian idea that this God exists and deserves priority recognition. Unfortunately, I don't get many opportunities to debate Christians, so my skills are not as sharp as I'd like. (I also have no formal training or education in the art of debate or writing for that matter, I'm just kinda wingin' it.) I'm confident that I always come out the winner in these discussions...it just takes a long time to get there sometimes.
Later in this discussion, you will see that I step away, regroup, and focus my discussion outside of this web that I've stepped into. My 'anatomy of a unicorn' analogy has hopefully showed that I'm heading in that direction.
If I could go back and change some of what I've said, I would. Unfortunately, this discussion is set in electronic stone now, and I can't change what I've written. It is what it is.
Thanks again for stopping by. I appreciate your comments and the fact that you've taken time to read this stuff. I'll check out your blog when I get a chance.